Responses to Recent Comments on "Pagan Apathy"

I wanted to respond to the comments left here on a post I made several days ago. I don't always get to log in and check things on a daily basis, especially if it is one of my husband's days off and he's got us running tons of errands.



Better late than never, better never late!

OK, first Diandra said:


"Hehe, know that one. I used to meet with a group of pagans in this area for some time, but then the self-proclaimed "leader" started talking about how we should perform sex magick for the next solstice, and all the others seemed to be looking forward to it and I... well, I left. It sounded more like an excuse for everybody to "get some"."
Often, when I see Pagans flock together, they seem like the proverbial "lost souls" gathering around one "leader" who, in worst case scenarios, feeds off the admiration of his/her followers. The not-so-lost pagans tend to be more solitary, less group-oriented - maybe more independent and self-sufficient? I don't know... but except for my "witch sisters" and a few very trustworthy pagans I met on the internet, I do not think too much of pagan groups.

Talking of which... I remember that the German PFI conference almost didn't take place because they had trouble raising the money... I am a paying member and didn't have the time to go, but I think it is important to have some kind of community to be represented as a group. Apart from that, there is not much to be done about everything (hardly any organized communities and stuff), and besides buying a fair share of books and tarot decks, I'd rather give money to charity than poorly organized people just because they are "fellow pagans".
(Does that sound mean?)"

I was lucky and never had the "sex magick" approach although I've had friends who went through that. I think maybe I just never got fully involved long enough in group activities for it to come up. When I first started practicing Wicca (1998) I was a waitress and I had a longtime customer who was some sort of Pagan as well and a VERY adept Reiki practitioner. For instance he could apply pressure on a stress knot in the shoulder area without touching it (don't ask me how, I have no idea). So once I was suffering from bronchitis at work and he happened to be there that day. He offered to have me come to his apartment and to do some healing work for me. Well, I was only about 23 at the time, very naive, and I guess you can see where this was going. He was much more concerned with trying to reach down my bra and steal a kiss than he was healing anything. Luckily he wasn't forceful and I was able to leave, though it was very awkward. But this wasn't really about Paganism or anything spiritual, horny people of all walks of life are always looking for "subtle" ways to get some. With what you say about the "not-so-lost" Pagans, I agree. For some the group experience is more rewarding. For others it can be rewarding too, but they find the solitary experience also rewarding and much less complicated and that's just where I happen to fall. And I agree with what you said about giving to charities as well, although in the past few years I am totally unable as I have come full circle from being comfortably middle class to being in the lower working class that qualifies for many charitable causes. :/

Debra She Who Seeks said...

"You make many excellent points but I don't think "apathy" is the root cause. Many pagans don't have one nickle to rub against another, in my observation, so of course they aren't out there spending big bucks. Among those of us who do have disposable income, the pagan community problems you mention of backstabbing, infighting and general unreliability are powerful reasons not to invest a swack of cash in other people's activities. As for books, etc. -- how many Wicca 101 books can you read before it's just "same old, same old"? I do support our local pagan store by buying as much stuff as I can there but eventually one does have everything needed. And spirituality is so much more than just buying things.

Great points! And I 130% agree that spirituality is much more than buying things. I have become (very unfortunately) one of those Pagans, no... lets just take the Pagan label out... one of those working class Americans who don't have two nickels to rub together. (My husband and I work very hard but we make very little. For me it was due to bad career and school decisions I made for myself about 5 years ago, never forseeing the crash of the Great Recession and two more surprise babies, that I landed myself in this position). I absolutely agree on the books, and that is what I went through myself! For some reason it was a little heartbreaking to me... I remember the thrill of shopping for Wicca 101 material in those first few years, and then the gradual apathy that began follow when I would find myself thinking, "I really can't apply this stuff to daily life anymore." But what I wish I could have seen (back then) was more spiritual materials dealing with practical everyday things such as: Pagans and Depression, A Pagan Approach to Body Image, and so on. I once saw a book called The Practical Pagan and in it there was advice that to be taken seriously you should be bathed and clean shaven and I thought, "Are you kidding me? If an adult needs to be reminded of this we've got a problem!"

I should clarify here that I didn't mean it to sound like that just because the Pagan community has seen a downturn in sales or contributions through the years then that means people aren't "spiritual enough" because they are no longer shelling out the cash. It's quite the opposite for me in fact. I'm taking the economy out of the equation because I noticed this "decline" about six years ago before the economy went very bad. What felt unsettling to me is that there had been a surge in the general public in interest in Earth based or alternative religions and then it seemed to drop dramatically. At that time I was going through a spiritual crisis and I wondered if the drop in interest was because so many other people had once found the path beautiful and empowering and then became disillusioned with it. I did later (after much soul searching) find my own way though.

Tamara said...

I'm from Minneapolis and I know the temple that Kallan was talking about. It is sad to say that alot of people just do not have extra money these days to donate...it's all most can do to just keep themselves afloat. And the Pagans of the past were actually a very poor group of farmers mostly, they lived simple and lived off the land. But now, Pagans come from all walks of life so I don't think the reason is just because they are "pagan". I think it's the economy and our way of life these days, which sucks. I worked at a wonderful spiritual/witchcraft shop two years ago...the owner gave me my own room and things were great. Then it just stopped...business fell so far off he had to let all of us go and he does it all himself now. Very very sad what is happening.

I kind of covered that with the comments above, and I agree. (And I liked the comment about the Pagans of the past too, I had thought that was a great point you made on Kallan's site as well.) Thanks for joining my blog, by the way!

Alrighty! After this post it is back to various rambling of whatever.

Pagan Apathy... 'Cause It's Not All Love and Light

One of the blogs that I follow:




The writer of this blog (Kallan) recently posted on a subject that's been troubling me for... well, it's been at least four years now, and that is the subject of "Pagan apathy".

She mentions a Pagan temple in the Minneapolis area that could barely raise $7,500 to keep their temple open. In the end they did finally raise the money but it mostly came from contributions from other states rather than the local community whom it existed to serve. I live in Texas, the very buckle of the Bible belt, and I'd be willing to bet that some of the mega churches that we have out here raise this type of money weekly. While I realize the Pagan community isn't near as well established or financially secure I still find the whole comparison a bit mind boggling.

I have actually never thought about it really in depth until about this moment but I dropped totally out of the (in real life) Pagan community back in 2004. Actually I believe that is why I chose part of my magickal name back in that same year ("Slytherin") - not only because I'm the ultimate Harry Potter nerd - but because once I see the bumbling/disappointing/dark side of human nature I become extremely solitairy and do not "play well with others".

I live in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. For years here we had a beautiful Pagan sanctuary called Betwixt and Between that I was a member of for a while. I used to love it there. The first time I'd stepped through their doors (in the year 2000 or 2001 I want to say) it was like falling in love at first sight with that boy in 11th grade Geometry class. I was filled with nothing but positive hopes for the future, total fulfilment on my newfound spiritual path as a Wiccan, and a total sense of belonging - much like a young girl in love for the first time. But once the sparkly surfaced was scratched I found lots of backbiting between the leaders of the community. The location of the temple changed every single year due to evictions, which was very unsettling. There were plenty of financially contributing members (including myself) but somehow they just couldn't stay ahead. They finally closed their doors sometime around 2007 or so but I had stopped taking part long before then.

In her blog Kallan says: "One of the things we noted is that Pagans don't spend a lot. There is a stigma attached somehow (true or not?) that Pagans don't have disposable income. I wonder if that truly is the case, because many (most) of my Pagan friends are what we would term as middle-class folks. I realize we're in a downed economy, folks. But, does this mean we're no longer spending anything at all other than on rent/mortgages, car payments, food, clothing and shelter? Somehow, I think not. I see tons of FB pages posting about vacations, movies, books, etc... so I'm finding it hard to believe that we don't have the money to spend on our spiritual tools, books, etc... nor on places of worship and things designed specifically to support our community."

True dat. These days (with three kids, loss of earning power, a divorce and now a second marriage) I have no disposable income. But back when I was an active Pagan I was comfortably middle class. Kallan links Raven Grimassi's blog and there was a quote that was somehow very startling to me: "Many Publishers of books on Wicca, Witchcraft, Paganism, Magick and so on, are seeing a sharp decline in the interest of such books among the public."

All I can think is (eyes popping jaw dropping) "Has it really gotten that bad?" But I know before I even complete the question that yes, it has. And I'm sad to say that it particularly had in my own world.

She mentions the fact that Pagan shops are faltering and failing at an alarming rate. And don't I know it? Dallas/Fort Worth used to be filled with them. My favorite went bust about five years ago. But there is one still within driving distance but not only are they ridiculously overpriced but a few years ago when my first child was about two one of the owners kept ribbing me about the big fat baby belly I couldn't seem to lose and kept comparing my figure to the Millineal Gaia statue. I have that statue here in my living room but as beautiful as it is I can never look at it without thinking of my "disgusting belly" that has now borne a total of three children. Needless to say I have never set foot in a Pagan shop since. Its rare I get to do rituals these days so it is rare that I need things, but when I do I either make do with what I have or shop online.

My whole point to this ramble is that I became disenchanted with the community years ago and it unfortunately changed my spiritual views totally. I believe my spiritual views are much more mature now but I miss the "stars in the eyes in love for the first time" days of early Wicca. Like most I ended up having a bad experience in someone's in home Wiccan coven. The leader (amidst backstabbing everyone in the coven and practicing things a little too dark even for this Slytherin Witch) constantly claimed to see "fairies" in every square inch of her home. I am reminded of the old Morrissey lyrics from his Ouiga Board, Ouiga Board song: "The table is rumbling/the glass is moving/no I was NOT pushing that time" You know what? The video to that song perfectly summarizes the disconnect I felt to the Wicca after these experiences:




For a while I tried going back to my Baptist roots. As you can imagine this didn't really work for me either. There are things I find about Christianity and the Christian community that I find beautiful. One of the big things is the way the community rises together and supports each other in ways that the Pagans do not, and it is of course this failing in the Pagan community that is causing the gradual lack of interest. I love that most Christian circles promote basic family values, such as not leaving a marriage unless it is absolutely necessary (trust me on this, divorce really does screw up the kidlets). That being said there are things I will NEVER agree with that they also rise as a community to fight: banning of gay marriage, banning rights to any religious groups that are not their own. There are pieces of Christ's message that I find not only beautiful but applicable to everyday life. But there are too many things in my Pagan soul that I cannot let go of no matter how many salvation prayers are uttered or baptisms are mulled over. Things such as: Greek pantheon and legends, daemons, spirit guides, animal guides, the actual experience of seeing and knowing magick works, the sensing and feeling of the energy in every living thing... just to name a few. So in the end I just kind of combine my love of both spiritual paths and toss out what doesn't work. Most on both sides of the fence would say that couldn't work "you cannot serve two masters" but I believe each person's spiritual experience really can only be tailored for them, and for me this was where experience has led me for now.